In what it seems is now a three part series I am diving in again to talk further about the quilt shop world that few talk about in the open. In Part One I talked about diving in and in Part Two I spoke about how you can make a difference to your local quilt shop
In part three I am hoping to tackle the the oh-so-false idea that quilt shop owners are rolling around in beds of money and laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of poor helpless customers who contend that they are being “gouged” when it comes to the prices that brick and mortar stores are charging them for goods and events.
Again this is not meant to be a definitive piece on the subject. I consider it yet another volley in helping the public understand small business better. Again, again I am not unbiased in this situation and yet I do my best to be transparent about a topic that many keep under wraps for fear of embarrassment or condemnation. (Read this as a lot of people might be pissed about me talking so freely about this topic – the comments section will tell the tale)
In our case it has filtered down to me that our next event was the topic of conversation at a local guild meeting and we were unfavorably accused of gouging customers with the price of our next event featuring a national quilt teacher ( who by the way is FREAKING AMAZING and worth every penny) I can’t say that this did not hurt since we spend a serious amount of time and money at SPOOL providing FREE weekly classes as well as a metric shit ton (yep – I said it) of money supporting local events, charities and even individual quilters in need every freaking month.
So to have someone(s) wax on about how we must think we are “pretty special” to charge such a sum only shows that while quilters say that they want access to big name teachers they have no idea what it costs to bring them in… so I thought I would take some time to lay it out for those who just don’t get it.
A-List Mythical Quilt Teacher Event ( costs based on the averaging of price sheets from 4 national teachers and regional costs for Chattanooga TN)
Teaching charge $500-$1000 a day – Yes, this is typical and customary. This person has put years into perfecting their craft as well as a great deal of time preparing for teaching whatever 1-2 day long event you might be considering.
Hotel room for teacher – $150-$200 day depending on region – And no, they should not have to sleep with Tom Bodett at Motel 6 nor should that have to sleep on a pull-out sofa or on a spare bed in someone’s basement. These teachers are professionals are should be treated as such, that means a nice safe hotel with business class amenities.
Meals for teacher $80 to $100 a day – No sack lunches, fast food or sub par eating is acceptable. Hotel food and eating out are expensive, again this is a business person not a college student on a skip-year backpacking through Europe.
Travel charges $350 – $600 for a plane ticket. – NO, they don’t’ have to use up their frequent flyer miles to come teach you… why should they?
Event Space Rental $300 – $700 per day– if you are going to have an event large enough to cover your costs you are going to need to rent an event space
Table and Chair Rental $150 to cover use by 20 people.
Food, snacks, bottled water $200 for students and teacher and class aids
Employee time $10-$12 per hour – for 2, 8 hour days. No teacher can help 20 + students at one time so extra help needs to be brought on for people who are having trouble with machines, missing parts and all the other things that go wrong during the class hours as well as helping set up and break down the event.
And while these are not ALL of the expenses let’s do a little math shall we?? Let’s do a weekend event so – two days. It is very easy to see that just the basic costs involved can come to over $5,000 to put on just a 2 day event.
So now, let’s look a little further…. let’s take that $5,000 ( sounds like a lot right?) and divide it by the 20 students…. wait… what is that you say?… that comes out to be just $250 a person?… $250 a person at COST?
Why yes, to bring in that A-list teacher it is going to cost your local quilt store owner at the very least $250 per student and if you have any business acumen at all you will notice that means NO PROFIT for the quilt store. Hours of work, amazing amount of planning and not one cent of profit.
busi·ness
ˈbiznəs/
noun
The practice of making one’s living by engaging in commerce to make a profit.
But what did the student get in exchange for $250? They got to sleep in their own comfy bed, make a simple and stressless commute to their local quilt store or event site. Use their own machine, be fed lunch, snacks and be taught by a national A-list caliber teacher for 12 hours for $250.
People, that is $20 an hour for the experience of a lifetime practically in your own backyard.
So next time you see or hear someone grumble that their quilt store is gouging them, help them do the math first and help them understand that to run a business you MUST make a profit or you might as well take all the pretty fabric and throw a match to it, the effect is the same either way.
I really like your series, I think you are correct in the estimation of costs. However, you do not include increase in sales both during and before the class. I’ve been in classes by several national teachers where the fabric requirements were over 20 yards/project. At $13/yd retail (the average cost in my area) that is $260, assuming 100% markup, the whole sale was $130, times 20 students the net revenue would be $2600. This number does not include revenue from machine, book or notion purchases, nor the marketing opportunities which come with a national teacher. All of these things must be involved in any cost/benefit analysis.
Love your article A LOT. The public just don’t get it do they. I have a tiny but nicely formed patchwork store in Australia, only one employee ( me ). My first ” customer” of the day walked in and asked straight away” where is the nearest spotlight?( enormous chain store). Sometimes the struggle for good customer service is just too hard. Sigh!!!!!!!
I got lucky today and a new FB friend posted a link to this article on FB. So I got to go back and read all three of your blogs plus check out Spool. I live in the Denver area so am fortunate to have a handful of terrific LQS’s around where I can usually find most fabric I am looking for. I am quite impressed with your articles Maddie and will definitely keep your shop on my radar screen. Maybe I’ll even get to Chattanooga in the reasonably near future to check out your “brick and mortar” store. Thanks for your open and honest information! Cheers!
So Craftsy is an even better deal than I thought.
(Better late than never) Sure Chris, it’s a great deal for the student as the costs of a professional video crew (3 people), preproduction and post production staff and specialized studio, plus ongoing social media and customer service are all divided by the several thousand to 20,000+ students per class. Imagine if those costs were divided by a mere 20 people as in Maddie’s example.
But to compare online video classes, even the calibre of Craftsy’s to an in-store experience is to do further insult to these shop owners. (Says a shop own AND Craftsy instructor) There’s just something special about in-person classes.
As a teacher/lecturer that travels the country teaching for guilds and shops… I must add that shops actually DO make a profit. Even though the students pay for me, they eagerly spend their money in the shop for their projects and every time that student walks through the doors of the LQS they buy SOMETHING. So it DOES pay the LQS to hire nationally known teachers as they also sell product. It is a win-win-win… for all involved.
And this is exactly why I do not miss being in the business any longer.
Transparency is a wonderful thing, Maddie. Thank you for being willing to speak out on what too many have yet to understand. You have covered so much in so little space, from both the organizer’s and the teacher’s side. Well done. And a big thanks.
Thankyouthankyouthankyou! I have not raised my teaching fees in 3 years (and it really is about time). I teach internationally, have written 2 books, been on tv, have DVDS,and love, love, love teaching. Periodically, a guild will ask me to cut my fee. Uh – sorry. I work too hard and make too little, not to mention the wear and tear of traveling.
The great part about teaching at a quilt shop (which I am seldom invited to do) is that the students almost always buy fabrics they need/want/covet while they are there. Because I teach improvisational/free-form/no pattern quilt design, which leaves it very open for them to support the quilt shop by filling in as they go with something they didn’t bring. Such fun! But yes, I am worth my fee and i encourage my students to email me afterwards with questions and to ask for feedback when they get home. Is anybody paying me for THIS?? Nope. But I believe it is part of good teaching– and I greatly appreciate your post. Nobody goes into this business – either teaching or owning a shop – because they expect to make scads of money…but because we love it. However, we do need to support ourselves, don’t we!
Excellent article. I’ve never attended or had an opportunity to have a teacher like this but know they are professional and I would be lucky to be able to go for a day or two. Quilters should be told how this works so they can appreciate all of the hard work their shop owner puts out and how expensive it is. Operating a quilt shop is expensive and in our town we are blessed to have a first-class quilt shop and a great owner that makes everything beautiful for all of us quilters.
It’s often occurred to me that the very same people that bitch about costs of classes also complain that they can’t sell their quilts for the amount of time and supplies that they have invested. They believe their time and materials are more valuable that the ones providing classes, silly asses.
Thank you for taking time to address classes. MUST read for all quilters.
You are right on the money!! Glad you took the time to write about this 🙂
The cost of coming to your next event (that I would LOVE to attend BTW) is dirt cheap!! In Australia, that would be more than double!!! We have a large quilting event coming up in Melbourne in April and the cost of attending 2 days of classes is over $700. People need to get some perspective!!
Good on you for telling it how it is!
Spot on! Thanks for this series. It’s important for consumers to realize the costs involved. It’s their decision whether to partake and yours what to charge.
Also in many cases, the hosting shop is expected to purchase all the books, all the fabric, all the gadgets, etc. featured by the featured expert. It’s a huge expense that lasts a lot longer than the day of the event.
Being the manager of our local quilt store I really appreciate you writing this. We have the same experiences with events and classes. Even if we “just charge for the expenses and hope that the students go shopping” we get flack. Thank you, thank you, and you.
Amen, Maddie and to all the above relies. I have put together a conference in the healthcare field so I know what it costs and what effort is involved to get the kind of speaker/teacher desired. I am so glad that there are people and shops that are willing to put together shows and teaching events. I can’t afford to go to many events but I note that the employees at my favorite shop are so willing to share what they learn. Please keep up the good work, Maddie. And I hope that you are making some profit. I hope to be able to go to Tennessee to see your shop some day.
Well said! If you want quality teachers, you need to pay. Yes, these teachers love quilting, but it is wrong to expect them to teach for nothing! There’s also all the planning and preparation that goes into teaching BEFORE s/he is in front of the people in a class.
As a hobbyist quilter, I fully appreciate all the efforts my local shops make to keep customers happy. I know that it is a LOT of work to run a retail business, and that margins are thin to begin with, and I, personally, choose to shop in person at small quilt shops whenever I travel, to support them and to see what’s new and to handle the fabric and tools myself. I attend a lot of workshops and love how much I get from them; not just the content, but the camaraderie from fellow quilters. I hate it when I hear quilters talk about going nto Walmart to buy their fabric “because it’s cheaper” or not going to events because they “charge too much.” So, thank you for this. I shared it on my Facebook timeline and hope a lot of my quilting friends see it.
Thank you! As an owner of a brick and mortar quilt shop I know what it cost to bring in a teacher. Thank you for spelling it out!
The personal experience of having these teachers give feedback, inspiration and motivation in our craft is PRICELESS. For creative environments to thrive and feed those who give back to it, everyone needs to support these endeavors. The arts are supported by our supporting the arts in the businesses that feed the energy…not in the corporate-structures that are not feeding every corner of the industry.
Hi Maddie,
I am in the process of opening a Thread Education Center in Southern California. I am also feeling the stress of why are you going to charge to let us teach or have meetings in your store. So many people have never operated or maintained a business, so they have nor experienced what it costs to keep the lights, let alone bring in quality people to teach and educate. Thank you for penning this article.
When I’m booked for a class out of town, I make sure to let other shops/guilds in the area know, in case they want to add on and share costs, or chip in for a larger space.
I know a few teachers who don’t mind a guest room, but it’s rare. After 12+ hours of being “on”, it’s nice to have a quiet, private place to decompress.
Last year, my fees were averaging $350/$650 for 1 day/2 day (within driving distance-plus per diem, if necessary) and plenty thought it was outrageous. I was happy to stay home and work, and only booked two weekends, not including one on one classes. Two shops who said it was too expensive have contacted me in the past month, asking again, but my fees are higher now, and for the immediate future, I can’t take bookings more than an hour from home.
People love local shops and want them to succeed, but at the same time, they want the moon and stars on a glitter budget. I’m happy to see you pull back the curtain and show the true cost of doing business.
Harrumph!
I have taken some of these classes at a shop, several actually and I have to travel to take any of them. They have all been well worth the money, time and investment. We have no classes locally worth taking. Most of the quilters in my area have that mentality of that’s too much. I privately attempted to bring in a teacher and set up a class, but no one wanted to pay and they all wanted it for free. But when they have a problem they want me to come show them because I took the class. And nope I won’t do it. It is disrespectful to the teacher and me!
Thank you, once again, Maddie for the well-written and thought out article. It is so frustrating, as a shop owner, to have to smile and listen to customers who will travel out of state to attend classes by big name artists, and complain that your prices for similar events are way too high. I hope more consumers will take the time to read this.
Maddie you have written this and you are spot on my friend… Your experience in this business and the fact you are sharing with everyone is AMAZING!!!! I am blessed to know of you and have been even more blessed reading all of your post. You are the smart cookie in the bunch for sure when it come to these detailed subjects. I cannot have come close to expressing myself as well as you have… I thank you so much for all you do for those trying to succeed in this business…
Sincerely a Continued Supporter of all things Quilty…
Very well said. As a professional quilting teacher, when I am asked about lodging – hotel or would you home stay – my answer is always, “Sure, I will home stay for an additional $100 a day”. It always feels like work to home stay. You must compliment their bizarre collection of (fill in blank), be a nice polite guest, like mama taught you, you sing for your supper and tell funny stories at the table. I say it is OK, when nobody knows their wifi password, and I am missing a deadline about something else. Nor, do I want my hostess to share with the guild that I need 2 hours to get ready. It is show time! Hair and makeup require time in the AM. Thank you for your professional insight.
Even as a Guild Program person it is a tough sell. Since only 20 of our 150 or so members can attend a workshop it isn’t fair to use guild funds for the workshop. Generally we have a trunk show that all members can attend on day two so the guild covers that cost and half the travel.
Also have to deal with the “but you a member of the guild”…which translates to “you should do this for free.” I finally had to tell them I would do one program a year and do an appraisal for the guild donation quilt as my guild member duty.
Well said! I don’t often attend A-list teacher events because I can’t afford it, but I’m very happy for friends who can, and eventually I absorb some of what they learned by watching and listening as they practice our craft. Thanks for all you do — I appreciate you greatly
I feel like this article is beneficial to all quilters, but more importantly to NEW(er) quilters, like me. I have looked into a few of these events, though sadly none local, and wondered how in the world they could cost so much. Now I know! Thank you for the lesson. 🙂
I had no idea what was required in time and talent let alone the financials until I got involved in workshops and other events in my Guild. Meeting nationally-known teachers and fabric designers and hearing how little they make designing fabric lines, etc. Hearing from quilt shop owner-friends how they walk that fine line between keeping their customers happy and paying the bills. And now trying to hire teachers for a large event, finding a venue that will make the experience even better, feeding everyone, making everyone happy and just breaking even…..It’s been an eye-opener for sure.
I would rather help you pay your bills than go to a big-box and be treated like garbage, over and over again! I’ll get a lot more than a yard of great fabric. I’ll get over the top customer service, a very pleasant experience and if I visit enough, a relationship with the staff. There’s nothing more satisfying than sewing with my friends.
You forgot advertising the event costs which must be done and all the quilt shop owners time that don’t get paid for! Then everyone wants free gifts and discounts on there fabric or kit etc etc! So true!
I appreciate this post from a teacher’s perspective. Thanks for laying it all out there. Your numbers are spot on.
This must be said! It’s so easy for those who haven’t a clue to pass judgement. stop judging people and take a class with a professional!
Ok – so I want to take a class at the AQS show in Paducah.
Hotel for 2 nights $400 plus taxes – BTW the class in all day so if I want to see the exhibit I stay another day.
Membership fee for AQS – $25
Entry fee to show – $10 for a one day $18 for two days
Gas to get to Paducah – 2 tanks -$80
Meals – 4 at the least – $50 minimum
Class fee for one day class – $88
Minimum cost to take this class – at least $660
If you can do a local class for $250-300 it is a BARGIN!!!!
The persons complaining are probably the same ones that think that because they pay $30-40 a year to belong to the guild that everything should be free for them after that – trust me, I know – I have been on our guilds board many years and know what it takes to put on the programs and hear the same complaints from the same persons year after year!
Excellent post Maddie!!!
I have also been hit with”no refund” before! This is totally fair, as there is often no opportunity for the event sponsors to fill that space on short notice or if someone pulls a no-show. Though most quilt shops bend over backwards to fill the space and refund my money, if they can’t, they are still liable for the expense incurred in my name.
Also, I often pay quite a bit more to buy at my locally owned quilt store simply because I want to make sure they make enough to stay open. If I want the luxury of the things they can provide, I need to be willing to support them in return.
You’re bang on, of course. Special events like this are just that – special, because you just can’t arrange events like this for every month, with the big teachers that people want to see. It’s quite different when a guild puts on an event vs a store. They’re not meant to make a profit, and if the returns from dues and their quilt show raises enough to spend on big teachers, thats fine, but you are not a volunteer. Thank you for writing a clear article on what it takes for you to create an event for your clients.
Thanks from all us quilt shop owners. People just don’t get it. I’m having a teacher from out of the country next year and people have grumbled about the price. I’m hoping to just break even. So it’s hard to smile and be happy with complaining customers when all the while you’re worried about losing money.
Amen! I would add that I have paid up to 1800 for a teaching fee (no other expenses added in yet) for one day for a well known teacher and it is a scary commitment for a shop owner. Luckily I have a big enough room to not have to rent a space but still a huge commitment!
I’d also like to add that we pay a “shit-ton” for booths at quilt shows, too, so it would be nice if customers appreciated that we are there and not expect huge “deals” on merchandise since we need to cover the expense of the booth, employees for set up, manning the booth and take down.
Thank you for writing this post Maddie!
What! $1800 a day!! Who?? I know you will not answer that, and I think I know who…
As a freelance/self employed type, I have always used this equation: If you want to make $100,000 a year, you must earn $500 a day for 200 days a year. That is before any taxes, expenses, cost of doing business. So, clearly $500 a day is a great base rate for a professional service/freelance job in any category.
I’d throw in here too that $500 a day doesn’t really make $100,000 a year for a freelancer. You mentioned taxes, expenses and costs of doing business – but people also need to factor in two unpaid travel days for almost any event, the time spent prepping samples and class materials and working out all the details of the class, and the time spent designing new work and techniques that will make people want you to invite you to teach. $500 per day is a great deal!
I’m sorry I never saw this question. Yes I can’t answer but I bet you know who it is. That fee is now 2000 for a one day class. Agh!
And you’re one shop owner, not a guild where part of members’ dues can get funneled toward some of the expenses. I think Spool is head and shoulders above many shops because of your willingness to expand the quilting horizon with top-notch guests, as well as your strong community involvement. You are extremely generous with your talent and you have a giving heart. But if you’re not making a return on your investment, you can’t keep the doors open. Those who don’t understand this will be the first ones to complain when they don’t have a local quilt store to shop at.
This is SO true. Many shops lose money because not enough people sign up, yet the shop must honor its commitment to the guest teacher. Some quilters are just cheap; like the ones who won’t cut of the selvage completely! Thanks for wring this.
And sometimes the shop owner gets another slap in the face when the students don’t even buy the supplies from her! Despite her offering 10% discount to registered students
I always thought these workshops I wanted to sign up for were a bit pricey, until I became my modern quilt guild’s president and started looking into booking someone to come teach one. We’re lucky to have a space at no cost so all we have to cover is getting the person here and their fees to teach! Add to that the current state of the US/Cdn exchange and pretty much all of the US based people are miles outside of our price range.
While I can understand why people might not want you to discuss this sort of thing, I think it’s good to get it on the table as it certainly puts things in a very different perspective for your customers!
Damn straight. And what if you don’t have 20 people smart enough to take advantage of this opportunity? The shop is either in the hole or has to cancel the event which sometimes means a hefty (albeit fair because cancelled gigs mean holes in travel schedules and loss of revenue) cancellation fee. Either way, the shop is at risk.
As a potential student who paid for two different classes with my LQS and nationally known teachers which were cancelled due to lack of participation, I do have to share a fun story. The second time it happened, it turned out that I could be in a location near that teacher’s home. As her weekend was suddenly opened, a friend and I made arrangements for a private day with her in her studio. She didn’t make as much as she would have with a large class, but she had some income for the weekend and we had a great day playing with some of her techniques! A disappointment turned into a win!!
Right on girl. I have been program chair for 2 guilds over the years and even for a relatively local teacher the costs are way more than people can imagine. Anyone who doesn’t know this has never attended a class at a major quilt show where you are like you say- traveling and paying your own hotel and living expenses as well as the class fees. Keep up the good work. I am a fan from CA.
Very well written and absolutely necessary, Maddie. Thank you for making this simple enough to understand.
Amen
Everyone should understand this!